I think you know what you are doing here... :)
User avatar
By rgilley
#264047
Is this the same seed ya'll are speaking of or is this a blend?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/5-lb-Rackmas ... YJYxbXvu24
http://www.amazon.com/Pennington-Rackma ... B009AORKBY

the durano clover from pennington is a improved variety ladino clover that is worth the extra cost when it can be bought for 5 dollars or less a pound it should be bought.


That is the right stuff Rick but the price is outrageous. You can buy a 25 lb bag from Poudre Valley Coop for $125 with shipping included. That is the $5/lb that Hazelvillebucks is referring to. I have not found a better price anywhere. Ask for Harvey when you call. They do have a web site but don't sell on-line. I'm not sure if that $5/lb for a 25 lb bag is for everyone or just for QDM folks. I originally got the contact info from the QDM forums.

Dixie Crimson Clover is one of the components I use for cover crops. It is great. It does reseed itself in central VA and I'm sure it does in NC. It is beautiful when in bloom and deer love it.

When I reclaim old logging decks with the top soil removed, I use a two year cycle of buckwheat double cropped in the spring followed by winter rye, GHR, and Crimson Clover in the fall. In the second year, I use Durana instead of crimson and then keep the field as a perennial clover field for 5 to 8 years.

I just finished mowing one of the decks today. I had used WR, Durana, and GHR last fall. After mowing the WR, I found I have about 70% Crimson and 30% Durana. The crimson from the previous year had reseeded itself. No worries, the Durana will eventually out-compete the Crimson and slowly take over the field.

If you let the crimson go into bloom (probably already has) and keep it mowed as needed, if you disk and plant Durana and winter rye in the fall, you will likely end up with a nice mixed plot next spring that eventually will become a Durana plot.

Thanks,

Jack


thanks Jack....good information there...
User avatar
By bowhtr1
#264303
Durana is a good clover and should be planted in the fall. You can plant early spring but I think it is to late now. It is also slow to grow the first year so other weed and plants can choke it out before it gets going good. Because of this I would never plant this in the spring. I have planted this several times but had to use a lot of sprays to allow it to thrive. Post plus herbiside is a must after it comes up. My two cents.
By yoderj@cox.net
#264322
Durana is a good clover and should be planted in the fall. You can plant early spring but I think it is to late now. It is also slow to grow the first year so other weed and plants can choke it out before it gets going good. Because of this I would never plant this in the spring. I have planted this several times but had to use a lot of sprays to allow it to thrive. Post plus herbiside is a must after it comes up. My two cents.


With Durana properly planted in the fall with a WR cover crop and properly maintained by mowing (especially the first spring) I've needed no herbicides until a plot hits about 5 years.

It may depend specifically on the individual grasses you are trying to control, but I have found that Cleth + crop oil is a better bet than Poast for me.
User avatar
By bowhtr1
#264388
Durana is a good clover and should be planted in the fall. You can plant early spring but I think it is to late now. It is also slow to grow the first year so other weed and plants can choke it out before it gets going good. Because of this I would never plant this in the spring. I have planted this several times but had to use a lot of sprays to allow it to thrive. Post plus herbiside is a must after it comes up. My two cents.


With Durana properly planted in the fall with a WR cover crop and properly maintained by mowing (especially the first spring) I've needed no herbicides until a plot hits about 5 years.

It may depend specifically on the individual grasses you are trying to control, but I have found that Cleth + crop oil is a better bet than Poast for me.


Sorry, I didnt mean only use Poast plus. I am currently using Arrow and it works just as good. Of course you have to have the crop oil with this. The first time I planted Durana I mixed Patriot clover with it in fall. My cousins planted Whitetail clover in their plots around me. The first years their plot made mine look sick. The second year the Durana came on fast and look just as good as their plots. If you read up on Durana they even say it is slow to establish. The first summer I did have to spray to keep the weeds and grass out. Timely mowing will help keep the grass and weeds down. Lime and fertilizer is more important than anything. Use a 0-20-20 or equal fertilizer after established and a triple 13 or better with first planting. Soil test will save you alot of trouble. Repeat soil test will save you alot of trouble. Waisted alot of money over the years. :) good luck.
By yoderj@cox.net
#264484
Durana is a good clover and should be planted in the fall. You can plant early spring but I think it is to late now. It is also slow to grow the first year so other weed and plants can choke it out before it gets going good. Because of this I would never plant this in the spring. I have planted this several times but had to use a lot of sprays to allow it to thrive. Post plus herbiside is a must after it comes up. My two cents.


With Durana properly planted in the fall with a WR cover crop and properly maintained by mowing (especially the first spring) I've needed no herbicides until a plot hits about 5 years.

It may depend specifically on the individual grasses you are trying to control, but I have found that Cleth + crop oil is a better bet than Poast for me.


Sorry, I didnt mean only use Poast plus. I am currently using Arrow and it works just as good. Of course you have to have the crop oil with this. The first time I planted Durana I mixed Patriot clover with it in fall. My cousins planted Whitetail clover in their plots around me. The first years their plot made mine look sick. The second year the Durana came on fast and look just as good as their plots. If you read up on Durana they even say it is slow to establish. The first summer I did have to spray to keep the weeds and grass out. Timely mowing will help keep the grass and weeds down. Lime and fertilizer is more important than anything. Use a 0-20-20 or equal fertilizer after established and a triple 13 or better with first planting. Soil test will save you alot of trouble. Repeat soil test will save you alot of trouble. Waisted alot of money over the years. :) good luck.



Yes, mixing with Pat White is a good combo. Pat white establishes quicker but is not as competitive or persistent once established. I've done that as well and it has worked pretty well.

The reason the WI clover made yours look sick the year planted is that the WI bag contains mostly berseem which is an inexpensive annual clover that takes off fast. Only a small portion of the bag has their exclusive improved varieties. This makes the actual price per pound of WI outrageous when you subtract out the cheap annual clover in the bag.

Durana is slow to establish. The WR cover crop becomes the attractant the fall planted, not the clover. One key the following spring is to manage the WR. You want it to survive as long as possible to keep the weeds at bay while the Durana is establishing a root system, but you don't want it to shade out the Durana. That is why I don't spray Cleth or Poast the first spring. WR has an allelopathic effect on weeds as well as simply crowding them out. Simply keeping the WR mowed keeps it growing as long as possible while still allowing the Durana to establish. With varieties like Ladino, I only mow from around 12" back to about 8" to make sure a dry spell after mowing doesn't set back the clover. However, with Durana, I've found mowing back to 6" works even better. It is a low growing clover and is drought tolerant enough that I don't worry about mowing back to 6".

Thanks,

Jack
User avatar
By Passingthrough
#279702
I used Evolved Harvest for a bow plot, and it's going on year 4. It's nothing but 4 leaf clovers :wink:
By Steve S
#279711
Not really, Yes WIC does have Berseem and other clovers in it and for the same reason your adding WR to your durana, to allow it time to develop Jack, IWC is slow to develop and needs time to develop its root base the same as durana does. Pennington also offers a product named Trio that's a "copy" of a bag of IWC it contains other lesser clovers than duranna to give the duranna time to develop, spreading from a root base instead of seed heads it doesn't require as many seed of the "good stuff" to get a lush stand of all WIC clover, Pennington also as a seed you might want to ck into, Pennington Patriot, from what I read, it does well in your area
By yoderj@cox.net
#279821
Not really, Yes WIC does have Berseem and other clovers in it and for the same reason your adding WR to your durana, to allow it time to develop Jack, IWC is slow to develop and needs time to develop its root base the same as durana does. Pennington also offers a product named Trio that's a "copy" of a bag of IWC it contains other lesser clovers than duranna to give the duranna time to develop, spreading from a root base instead of seed heads it doesn't require as many seed of the "good stuff" to get a lush stand of all WIC clover, Pennington also as a seed you might want to ck into, Pennington Patriot, from what I read, it does well in your area


Well, that is certainly the reason WI will give...Of course I doubt fact that including inexpensive annual clovers in the mix drive the cost per pound you pay for the improved clovers way up is lost on WI. The BOB mixes (WI, Pennington, or others) work well for guys planting small plots. They are convenient and the cost per acres isn't all that important when the total cost is low. However, when significant acreage is involved, they will bankrupt you (or at least me!)
By Steve S
#279848
Not really, Yes WIC does have Berseem and other clovers in it and for the same reason your adding WR to your durana, to allow it time to develop Jack, IWC is slow to develop and needs time to develop its root base the same as durana does. Pennington also offers a product named Trio that's a "copy" of a bag of IWC it contains other lesser clovers than duranna to give the duranna time to develop, spreading from a root base instead of seed heads it doesn't require as many seed of the "good stuff" to get a lush stand of all WIC clover, Pennington also as a seed you might want to ck into, Pennington Patriot, from what I read, it does well in your area


Well, that is certainly the reason WI will give...Of course I doubt fact that including inexpensive annual clovers in the mix drive the cost per pound you pay for the improved clovers way up is lost on WI. The BOB mixes (WI, Pennington, or others) work well for guys planting small plots. They are convenient and the cost per acres isn't all that important when the total cost is low. However, when significant acreage is involved, they will bankrupt you (or at least me!)

Nope, that's the reason a long time IWC user gives, BTW Pennington does the same. I don't understand your logic Jack, in one sentence you seem to be slamming IWC for doing the same thing you do, using other seed for a nurse crop, BTW I have 3200 acre lease{ that's a touch over five square miles} so I have both large and small plots planted. Deer are browsers and not grazers like cattle so smaller plots work well on the travel routes. When we were in a drought here I planted Duranna with moderate results, no fault of the Duranna but of the drought, you complain about cost but plant annuals that have to be sown yearly, IWC and duranna are close in price now but IWC does cost a little more up front but I have some plots that I gotten five+ years out of with only routine maintenance. Cost is one of the reasons I stay with WI products, the upfront cost is more than made up for in the long term results, another reason is the difference in the protein of IWC compared to duranna clover, this is from Seedland,- Durana will outlast conventional ladino clovers in food plots and persist for years. With protein levels of over 25% and digestibility of over 75%, Durana will make an excellent pure stand or combination planting for any food plot to feed, attract and hold game on your property. Durana Clover Seed - 5 LBS. (Coated Seed) Improved Clover - Pre-Inoculated - Pastures & Food plots $44.50---- so please show me the huge difference in price and please note ---an excellent pure stand or combination planting --- that tells me durana may do better when mixed with other seed, the same thing you complain about with IWC and ignore that IWC will develop into a field of Imperial clover. You and I both know that proper maintience controls the plants benefits to the animals it feeds. you seem to think Pennington doesn't plant under ideal conditions to achieve the very best test results for its products the same as WI does. Pennington is a very old Co and in the seed business for years, mostly lawn grasses and still fairly young in the wildlife industry, WI was started in 1988 and developed only products for deer and wildgame, one more reason I chose WI they don't use food plotting as a side line it was and still is the only seed they develop for Your right, plots cost a lot of money and why I do a lot of research before buying.
By yoderj@cox.net
#279863
Not really, Yes WIC does have Berseem and other clovers in it and for the same reason your adding WR to your durana, to allow it time to develop Jack, IWC is slow to develop and needs time to develop its root base the same as durana does. Pennington also offers a product named Trio that's a "copy" of a bag of IWC it contains other lesser clovers than duranna to give the duranna time to develop, spreading from a root base instead of seed heads it doesn't require as many seed of the "good stuff" to get a lush stand of all WIC clover, Pennington also as a seed you might want to ck into, Pennington Patriot, from what I read, it does well in your area


Well, that is certainly the reason WI will give...Of course I doubt fact that including inexpensive annual clovers in the mix drive the cost per pound you pay for the improved clovers way up is lost on WI. The BOB mixes (WI, Pennington, or others) work well for guys planting small plots. They are convenient and the cost per acres isn't all that important when the total cost is low. However, when significant acreage is involved, they will bankrupt you (or at least me!)

Nope, that's the reason a long time IWC user gives, BTW Pennington does the same. I don't understand your logic Jack, in one sentence you seem to be slamming IWC for doing the same thing you do, using other seed for a nurse crop, BTW I have 3200 acre lease{ that's a touch over five square miles} so I have both large and small plots planted. Deer are browsers and not grazers like cattle so smaller plots work well on the travel routes. When we were in a drought here I planted Duranna with moderate results, no fault of the Duranna but of the drought, you complain about cost but plant annuals that have to be sown yearly, IWC and duranna are close in price now but IWC does cost a little more up front but I have some plots that I gotten five+ years out of with only routine maintenance. Cost is one of the reasons I stay with WI products, the upfront cost is more than made up for in the long term results, another reason is the difference in the protein of IWC compared to duranna clover, this is from Seedland,- Durana will outlast conventional ladino clovers in food plots and persist for years. With protein levels of over 25% and digestibility of over 75%, Durana will make an excellent pure stand or combination planting for any food plot to feed, attract and hold game on your property. Durana Clover Seed - 5 LBS. (Coated Seed) Improved Clover - Pre-Inoculated - Pastures & Food plots $44.50---- so please show me the huge difference in price and please note ---an excellent pure stand or combination planting --- that tells me durana may do better when mixed with other seed, the same thing you complain about with IWC and ignore that IWC will develop into a field of Imperial clover. You and I both know that proper maintience controls the plants benefits to the animals it feeds. you seem to think Pennington doesn't plant under ideal conditions to achieve the very best test results for its products the same as WI does. Pennington is a very old Co and in the seed business for years, mostly lawn grasses and still fairly young in the wildlife industry, WI was started in 1988 and developed only products for deer and wildgame, one more reason I chose WI they don't use food plotting as a side line it was and still is the only seed they develop for Your right, plots cost a lot of money and why I do a lot of research before buying.



I wasn't intending to slam either company. I was suggesting that the practice of only selling the improved variety seeds as part of mixes makes them practical for the target audience planting small acreage, but not really practical for volume users. Pennington sells its improved variety by itself. I can buy it for about $5/lb delivered. Now, look at a bag of one of the WI clover mixes. What percent of the bag is there improved variety? Multiply that by the weight of the bag and divide the price to calculate price per pound of their improved variety. Cereal grains are inexpensive and can be purchased at the local coop. The cost/acre goes way up when you compare a BOB blend to buying an improved clover and planting in the fall with a cereal grain. Winter Rye provides nursing characteristics taking up space like the inexpensive annual clovers, but it also has a chemical allopathic effect on weeds.

You can perform the same calculation with Pennington clover mixes you describe as well. It is not the company, it is the approach. It does not scale.

The other thing folks need to watch out for with BOB mixes is that SuperMagnumBigBuck this year is not the same as SuperMagnumBugBuck last year. If you look at seed tags, you will often find the same named product contains different seeds and percentages from year to year. Finally, depending on the mix, most are pretty generalized. You might find that a significant portion of the seed is not well adapted for your area.

For a guy planting small acreage, the BOB products (regardless of company) fill a niche for the guy planting a small plot that doesn't have the experience or volume to mix himself. Those planting significant acreages quickly find that the most efficient way to go is to buy the seed you want and mix it yourself.

My recommendation to folks buying mixes is to completely ignore brand and marketing (we built this seed for deer...) and look directly at the seed tag. Brand doesn't matter. In many cases variety doesn't matter. In some cases variety does matter. It takes some time, but you can learn where it matters and where it doesn't.

I would suggest that beginners take a look at some of the Lickingcreek threads over on the QDMA forums. He is up north and we differ on some specific techniques, largely because of region, but he has some great threads and the basics are sound.

I'm not sure why you are seeing this as a Pennington verses WI. I don't see it that way at all. Durana is by far the best adapted clover for my area at a reasonable price. It happens to be exclusive to Pennington in the US, but if it was exclusive to WI and they sold it the same way, I'd be happy to buy it from them. If WI sold their improved clovers at a reasonable price outside a mix, I'd be happy to see how they perform, but they are not currently sold in a way that could be cost effectively incorporated in my program.

I've got nothing against either of these companies or their competitors. I'm only pointing out some of the hidden costs that folks often don't realize.

Thanks,

Jack
By Steve S
#279888
What "hidden" cost? ALL the contents inside a bag or pack of seed have to be listed on the bag,that includes the coatings on them including % of weed seed and inert matter, or they are here in Ga. It's a requirement of the Ga state dept of Agriculture. I read the QDMA forums a good bit and there's disagreements there also on what's best seed and/or techniques to use on planting food plots. Being in Ga, I remember when Durana was first introduced, it was, at that time, produced from an intermediate clover family and I have to assume by the same methods Imperial clover was produced from the Ladino clover family, I have no idea how either Co produce its seeds, the only two choices they have I'm aware of, is either genetic engineering or cross breeding the different varieties to get the very best features from different strains of each family. I decided to use IWC because its from the Ladino family and the protein it produces. Over the years I've seen the results from it, to say I'm pleased with the results from both IWC and Alpha-rack is an understatement. Would I change if I found something that could produce the same or better results for the wildlife at a lower cost? In a heartbeat!!
By yoderj@cox.net
#279921
What "hidden" cost? ALL the contents inside a bag or pack of seed have to be listed on the bag,that includes the coatings on them including % of weed seed and inert matter, or they are here in Ga. It's a requirement of the Ga state dept of Agriculture. I read the QDMA forums a good bit and there's disagreements there also on what's best seed and/or techniques to use on planting food plots. Being in Ga, I remember when Durana was first introduced, it was, at that time, produced from an intermediate clover family and I have to assume by the same methods Imperial clover was produced from the Ladino clover family, I have no idea how either Co produce its seeds, the only two choices they have I'm aware of, is either genetic engineering or cross breeding the different varieties to get the very best features from different strains of each family. I decided to use IWC because its from the Ladino family and the protein it produces. Over the years I've seen the results from it, to say I'm pleased with the results from both IWC and Alpha-rack is an understatement. Would I change if I found something that could produce the same or better results for the wildlife at a lower cost? In a heartbeat!!


The cost is "hidden" through the marketing. The seed tag is what reveals it and is why I suggest folks ignore the hype, marketing, and brand and look at the seed tag. The average guy hears all the "% protein...specially bred for deer...marketing" and thinks he is buying a bag full of it. In reality, it is a bag full of nurse crop with a little improved variety in it. I'm not suggesting the company is doing anything illegal or unethical. It is simply doing what companies do, trying to maximize profit. That DOES NOT mean the product is bad!

Quality Deer Management is largely about figuring out what your local herd is missing, which of the missing components are the current limiting factor, and addressing them in the most cost efficient manner. It is often described as plugging holes in the bucket. It does no good to plug the little holes at the top of the bucket if you still have big holes at the bottom.

I'm simply pointing out that while BOB mixes have a place where they fit; there are applications where they make no sense.

When I have a chance, I'll come back and make a post looking at the big picture.
By Steve S
#279938
What "hidden" cost? ALL the contents inside a bag or pack of seed have to be listed on the bag,that includes the coatings on them including % of weed seed and inert matter, or they are here in Ga. It's a requirement of the Ga state dept of Agriculture. I read the QDMA forums a good bit and there's disagreements there also on what's best seed and/or techniques to use on planting food plots. Being in Ga, I remember when Durana was first introduced, it was, at that time, produced from an intermediate clover family and I have to assume by the same methods Imperial clover was produced from the Ladino clover family, I have no idea how either Co produce its seeds, the only two choices they have I'm aware of, is either genetic engineering or cross breeding the different varieties to get the very best features from different strains of each family. I decided to use IWC because its from the Ladino family and the protein it produces. Over the years I've seen the results from it, to say I'm pleased with the results from both IWC and Alpha-rack is an understatement. Would I change if I found something that could produce the same or better results for the wildlife at a lower cost? In a heartbeat!!


The cost is "hidden" through the marketing. The seed tag is what reveals it and is why I suggest folks ignore the hype, marketing, and brand and look at the seed tag. The average guy hears all the "% protein...specially bred for deer...marketing" and thinks he is buying a bag full of it. In reality, it is a bag full of nurse crop with a little improved variety in it. I'm not suggesting the company is doing anything illegal or unethical. It is simply doing what companies do, trying to maximize profit. That DOES NOT mean the product is bad!

Quality Deer Management is largely about figuring out what your local herd is missing, which of the missing components are the current limiting factor, and addressing them in the most cost efficient manner. It is often described as plugging holes in the bucket. It does no good to plug the little holes at the top of the bucket if you still have big holes at the bottom.

I'm simply pointing out that while BOB mixes have a place where they fit; there are applications where they make no sense.
Again I agree with you, for the most part and to make a point, I'll continue to use WI and Pennington, as I said earler, WI was "born" in 1988 and for only one reason, the hunters market and they did something with clover that, to the best of my knowledge have ever been before with clover, they developed a hybrid clover, just for deer herds and were very successful at it but like all new products it had a drawback, slow development in the fields, the first time I tried it, I was not a happy camper, then time passed and spring came, now there I was, on the tractor with the harrows on, ready to plow up that plot and get it ready for something else, turned on the trail and got to the plot and for a second I really believed I was at the wrong place, there was the most beautiful field of clover I'd ever seen. sorry, not the end, where I'm going with this is WI is the only Co I know of that caters just to hunters and game management programs. Pennington for sure hit a home run with durana and a triple with Patriot, no doubt about at all and like WI had start up problems with durana, again slow development and a lesser success with their Rack Master line of both spring and fall annual mixes,correct me if I'm wrong but I think all those products have a Buck On the Bag, Pennington also as a very successful program for homeowner's and business with lawn seed and this is where I see them as someone who jumped on the bandwagon WI had started. Is that a problem for me? Yes and no, yes because wildlife isn't the only focus of the co and when they got into it a few years had passed and the process WI had developed had advanced and other seed Co's started using it for their own brands and no because I've known of and used Pennington lawn products for years and know they're reliable . I tried more than once to use Regal Ladino seed and other clovers, do the inoculant's, nurse crops and such, then figured out I was spending more money and seeing less in results. I then realized WI had already invented the wheel, all I had to do was push it, this was long before durana was developed Since then WI has developed other seed products that would plug any hole in my program
By yoderj@cox.net
#279972
Steve,

I don't think we are far apart in opinion either. However, there are a lot of improved clovers out there. Durana and some of the WI clovers are only a few. And if you go back far enough (NZ in this case) you will find the clovers were originally developed for livestock and then adapted a bit and marketed for deer. There is really nothing special going on there and from my way of thinking it is a lot more smoke than fire.

Let's look at it from the big picture perspective. Folks who are doing QDM generally need scale. If you don't own, lease, or have cooperative agreements with neighbors and can't work with a deer's home range, you won't be effective. Let's say our goals are to improve herd health. FIrst we need some metrics to measure a program by. Typical metrics include body weight and antler size. I won't get into the details here.

So, what is the lowest hole in the bucket? That may be different for folks in different places. I would guess that in most places, the lowest hole in the bucket is buck age, not nutrition. Letting young bucks walk will do more to increase antler size than anything else you can do in my neck of the woods, in most place, and I'd venture in your neck of the woods also. Once you've done that, you need figure out whether the cover or food or a combination is the next limiting factor. You can have great food, but if the deer have to leave your area of influence for cover, you'll loose the number 1 factor, age.

Let's say you are down to nutrition as being the factor most limiting your deer at this point. Are food plots the most effective answer? In most cases, they are not. While you can play around the edges a bit, nutrition boils down to two major factors, Deer and Dirt. Yes, you can amend soils and grow crops that your otherwise couldn't, but what percentage of a deer's diet comes from food plots? A tiny one. You can't change the underlying characteristics of your dirt over a large area, but you can shoot does. Reducing deer numbers does more to make nutrition available to the remaining herd in most places than planting food plots.

So food plots are a small part of a deer's overall diet, let's say 10% for arguments sake. A wise manager will have a variety of foods complementing what is available from native foods and local ag. Since you are talking clover here, lets use that as an example. Let's say 40% of my overall food plots are cover. Ok, now we are down to .04 % of a deer's diet. Now let's say brand X improved clover has 5% more protein than brand Y. We are down to .002 % difference to an individual deer. Oh wait, not all that clover in the bag was the superfantasticmegabuck variety. Let's not go there. How much premium am I paying for that .002%. If I took that premium and planted more acreage of brand Y, would my deer be better off?

Now how important is protein (since that is the nutrient you are focused on)? Well, deer need it to make... and when they are fawning....

But just like minerals, the studies that discuss deer nutritional needs are all done on penned deer with controlled diets. Our food plots really need the specific nutrients that are deer are not getting from the other native foods available to them. Have you ever seen the protein numbers for Pokeberry? What they need will vary from place to place and season to season. Science is pretty clear on what they need in general nutrition in absolute terms, but not in terms relative to what they have already.

My point is that looking at nutrient levels at a macro level across a program may have some value, but a few percentage points between variety x and variety y of the same crop are down in the roundoff error when it comes to the body weight or antler size.

Once all these holes are plugged, we eventually hit genetics; another factor we can't control in a free ranging environment. With the genetic factor in place, we can't even compare programs in absolute terms from one area to another. The best we can do is compare percentage increase or decrease.

Marketing is the art of identifying differentiators with the competition and regardless of how insignificant they are, spinning a story that makes them seem as important as possible. Some companies are better than others at this.

I, on the other hand, don't care if they feast or famine. I want to see folks have successful programs and think critically about them. By all means, use these products where they make sense to you and avoid them where they don't. Just be sure to add up all the costs and ask yourself, could I use the premium I'm paying for the marketing in a more efficient way. Sometimes the answer is no, but often it is yes.

Thanks,

Jack

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