I think you know what you are doing here... :)
By yoderj@cox.net
#320750

Unfortunately, Jack, you are simply wrong.

Deer crave the salt for osmonic balance in their blood. That alone is a benefit provided to wild deer. There is no argument against this simple fact. WHEN THE BALANCE IS OPTIMAL DEER DON'T CRAVE SALT.

Another study was done on selenium in an area lacking in this mineral. An artificial source of this mineral was found to increase the blood levels of local animals, including deer, to normal levels.

It is also well known that crops meant for human use, corn and beans and others, often deplete the local soils of needed minerals. Animals in the wild that eat these crops have been found to lack certain minerals (along with the domestic animals and humans). Supplementation helps to correct the problems (one of the same reasons we supplement domestic animals). While in the U.S. we are FAR behind in our attention to this mineral depletion, other areas of the world have been studying it for some time and actually actively return minerals to their farmed soils, in itself a form of supplementation. Areas of low magnesium, for instance, are well documented.

Will deer fall over dead without help? Nope, even without 100% of their optimum mineral intake. Will supplementation help? Yes. In areas where certain minerals are lacking, supplementation has been found to work on several species of animals.


Brian,

Yes, there are a few areas in the US where the soil is lacking in selenium, and too much selenium can be toxic. Yes, some farming techniques can deplete soils of certain trace minerals, yet free ranging deer populations have a high percentage of native foods in their diets and are not lacking in minerals.

Does the free ranging deer herd benefit from minerals? Absolutely. They will die without them. Do they benefit from mineral supplements? There are absolutely no peer review studies available in the scientific literature to support any such claim. If you believe there are such studies, please cite them for us. My mind is always open to be changed with sufficient empirical evidence. That is what science is.

Extrapolating "scientific" claims beyond the evidence is one definition of Marketing. There is noting wrong with marketing as long as it is clear that it is marketing. I'm glad to see the signature line with the link to your web site selling mineral supplements. This is a great way to both market your product and for readers of this thread to evaluate your claims.

This is a habitat and foot plot forum. Most of us doing such work have limited resources. The key is determining what the limiting factors are for the local deer herd and applying limited resources wisely and efficiently. The best way to do that is to assess the home range of a deer and find out what key components are missing and which ones are limiting the herd. Quality Deer Management is often described as figuring out the lowest hole in the bucket and plugging that first before moving to holes higher in the bucket. I realize not everyone on this forum is doing QDM; some are looking for simple attraction.

My point is simple. With limited resources, whether one is doing QDM or simple attraction, using methods with a clear scientific basis and no extrapolation beyond the evidence when matched with ones goals are the best course of action. If food plotters want to ensure their deer get sufficient minerals, the best course of action is to do proper soil sampling and properly fertilize fields and avoid planting monocultures or rotate crops to avoid trace mineral depletion. Money spent this way does double duty. Not only are plants the most efficient mineral delivery system, they also deliver high quality protein and carbs that do benefit deer. For those interested in attraction alone, they must weigh the potential consequences in disease transmission for using point source attractants verses using food plots that allow deer to naturally distribute for feeding. If they choose to go with a point source lick, the most efficient way is simply to use salt. If one wants to go on faith that minerals will help their deer in some way, the most efficient way is to simply add some low cost dical and trace minerals from the local coop versed BOB mineral supplements.

One nice thing about a QDM program is that it collects empirical data and analyzes it to help managers make good decisions about whether their programs are achieving the desired goals. A couple common measurements include antler size and yearling weights. Are there any studies that show mineral supplements improve any of these metrics in a free ranging deer herd? Nope.
User avatar
By mattpatt
#320811
We've tried establishing mineral sites. Our deer simply do not use them. We've tried feeding protein with corn mixed in. Nada...
By BrianWI
#321387
Jack,

You can repeat yourself, but the studies HAVE been done. You should look them up rather than repeating erroneous information.
By Blinginpse
#321388
Y'all rather pull hair or use boxing gloves. Both of ya got ya own opinion and neither will push the other to believe so let that be that Brian, jack!
By BrianWI
#321390
Sometimes, the truth is the truth. And why people think their lack of knowledge is proof something isn't real, who knows why?

Check out the MANY studies done on wild cervids and other animals across the world.

Look up Van Reenen, Pine and Mansfield, Ros-McGuaran, all people working with wild cervids.

Someone may claim the sky is green, yet it always remains blue.
User avatar
By Roscoe
#321395
Y'all rather pull hair or use boxing gloves. Both of ya got ya own opinion and neither will push the other to believe so let that be that Brian, jack!

As long as they are respectful of one another, they can "discuss" their differences of opinion as long as they desire.
By yoderj@cox.net
#321420
Brian,

This is very simple to resolve. You made the claims that studies showing that mineral supplements benefit free ranging deer herds exist in the peer review scientific Literature. Simply cite the specific study, journal name and issue, article name and link if it is available online.

For example, Van Reenen has wide body of work but no studies I could find demonstrate benefits to free ranging deer herds. All you need to do is cite it and we can discuss the specifics. Pine and Mansfield did not do a study but a literature review and there conclusion had nothing to do with mineral supplementation in free ranging deer. It cites a body of literature and concludes that SE is important to deer. No one is arguing that and he starts the article by identifying the well know toxic effects of SE.

It is not that I'm unfamiliar with the work you reference. It is simply that none of it draws the conclusions or makes the claims that you do.

Blinginpse,

You are correct that whether mineral supplements benefit free ranging deer herds is currently a matter of opinion or belief. That was my point. You are wrong about changing minds. I'm ready to change my mind (and I have on many deer related topics over the years) when new evidence comes forward that tips the scale. If Brian cites the reference I'll be glad to take a look at the study. If it actually shows herd health benefits in free ranging deer herds by using mineral supplements, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. So far, that challenge has gone unaddressed.

I have no problem with Brian's opinion that minerals help. My problem is when opinion is dress up as fact by using livestock and penned deer studies and extrapolating beyond the evidence to free ranging deer herds.

I'm not here to argue with Brian's opinion. His opinion is just as good as mine or anyone else's. There is lots of science to show how important minerals are to deer and other wildlife (as well as people). It is simply insufficient scientific evidence to conclude that mineral supplementation does or does not benefit free ranging deer.

Ross,

Maybe you could ban me so I don't have to play whack-a-mole with the marketer. :mrgreen:

Thanks,

Jack
By BrianWI
#321429
Jack,


I hate to say it, but it is obvious that what you do not know could (and does) fill many books on the subject.

We can agree to let you be wrong; I am fine with that. But I am not your teacher or your librarian. I'll give you a starting point that proves you wrong, but you must take it from there. As I am regularly involved in research (Bio-mathematician), I probably have better access than you, but arguing your own lack of knowledge is pointless.

Start here:

Effect of Trace Elements on Population Dynamics: Selenium Deficiency in Free-Ranging Black-Tailed Deer

Werner T. Flueck

The effect of the trace element selenium on black—tailed deer (Odocoileus hemionus columbianus) was studied in northern California. The role of selenium was evaluated by supplementing free—ranging adult females with selenium, measuring fawn production before weaning, and comparing to unsupplemented controls. Whole blood selenium levels (mode = 24 mg/kg) of unsupplemented animals were low, and 95% of free—ranging deer had inadequate levels according to livestock standards. There were no differences in whole blood selenium levels among sexes, ages, or seasons. However, there were significant differences between spring blood samples over the years. Selenium supplements increased preweaning fawn survival from 0.32 fawns/female to 0.83 fawns/female. The assumption that free—ranging wild ruminants are not normally susceptible to trace mineral deficiencies because adaptations to deficiencies occur over geological time was not supported.
By yoderj@cox.net
#321430
Jack,


I hate to say it, but it is obvious that what you do not know could (and does) fill many books on the subject.

We can agree to let you be wrong; I am fine with that. But I am not your teacher or your librarian. I'll give you a starting point that proves you wrong, but you must take it from there. As I am regularly involved in research (Bio-mathematician), I probably have better access than you, but arguing your own lack of knowledge is pointless.

Start here:

Effect of Trace Elements on Population Dynamics: Selenium Deficiency in Free-Ranging Black-Tailed Deer

Werner T. Flueck

The effect of the trace element selenium on black—tailed deer (Odocoileus hemionus columbianus) was studied in northern California. The role of selenium was evaluated by supplementing free—ranging adult females with selenium, measuring fawn production before weaning, and comparing to unsupplemented controls. Whole blood selenium levels (mode = 24 mg/kg) of unsupplemented animals were low, and 95% of free—ranging deer had inadequate levels according to livestock standards. There were no differences in whole blood selenium levels among sexes, ages, or seasons. However, there were significant differences between spring blood samples over the years. Selenium supplements increased preweaning fawn survival from 0.32 fawns/female to 0.83 fawns/female. The assumption that free—ranging wild ruminants are not normally susceptible to trace mineral deficiencies because adaptations to deficiencies occur over geological time was not supported.


Brian,

If you scroll back up and read my previous posts responding to your SE reference, I did not dispute that in the few areas of the country that are deficient in SE supplementation in that one specific mineral has value. However, as I said SE can be toxic as well. This does not translate to the general case of free ranging deer.

That study is not where the literature starts, it is where it ends. There are large volumes of scientific literature on the subject of mineral supplementation but none that supports your claim.

Still waiting for the citation...
By BrianWI
#321441
You are incorrect about the improvement to herd health in free ranging deer. Do minerals benefit deer? Absolutely. Do mineral supplements benefit free ranging deer? There are absolutely zero studies to show that they do.


Um, your claim was mineral supplementation does not work. Not one study. "Zero". However, this study proves it does, using Se as the mineral and a wild deer herd. You were simply wrong.

I would also check U of AZ on studies of copper deficiencies in wild cervids, since they had sound results with supplementation (overspraying).

Now, I don't feel it necessary to prove you wrong multiple times.

One other interesting bit of work from Dr. Michael McDonnell links Cu deficiency and CWD. Perhaps supplementation isn't such a goofy idea after all ;)
By yoderj@cox.net
#321451
You are incorrect about the improvement to herd health in free ranging deer. Do minerals benefit deer? Absolutely. Do mineral supplements benefit free ranging deer? There are absolutely zero studies to show that they do.


Um, your claim was mineral supplementation does not work. Not one study. "Zero". However, this study proves it does, using Se as the mineral and a wild deer herd. You were simply wrong.

I would also check U of AZ on studies of copper deficiencies in wild cervids, since they had sound results with supplementation (overspraying).

Now, I don't feel it necessary to prove you wrong multiple times.

One other interesting bit of work from Dr. Michael McDonnell links Cu deficiency and CWD. Perhaps supplementation isn't such a goofy idea after all ;)


That is correct, there are zero studies that show mineral supplementation benefits free ranging deer in general. This is an ongoing tactic of the industry to cite studies aimed at niche areas where a specific mineral is deficient and extrapolate it to support mineral supplementation as an effective technique at improving the quality of a free ranging herd.

I did not say that mineral supplementation was a goofy idea. I said that there is insufficient evidence that mineral supplements improve free ranging deer herds.

I love the point regarding CU overspraying. Supports my point that plants rather than point source licks and block and the appropriate delivery system for minerals. The wide variety of native plants have amazing abilities to extract and deliver minerals.

Lots of smoke here...but no fire...

Good luck selling your minerals...but not the smoke...

I got this sequence off the camera last night. wh[…]

Potty trained turkey

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Nice one towards the end there