I think you know what you are doing here... :)
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By bowhtr1
#312456
Image

This has been working great for me. 3rd year for this one. Have not replanted. I do over seed in the summer with Jointvetch. When the clover goes dormant with the hot weather the vetch takes off. The deer are hitting it hard.
By Steve S
#312526
Beautiful, I have 23 plots and all are planted with W.I. products and why, I firmly believe, is the reason we're taking 200LB bucks in North Ga now instead of 75lb ones


Hyperbole is an understatement!

the truth hurts only those that plant attractants instead of high quality 12 month a year nourishment
#312527
Beautiful, I have 23 plots and all are planted with W.I. products and why, I firmly believe, is the reason we're taking 200LB bucks in North Ga now instead of 75lb ones


Hyperbole is an understatement!

the truth hurts only those that plant attractants instead of high quality 12 month a year nourishment


I'm not sure I follow that one, but suggesting that WI products are responsible for a 160% increase in buck weights doesn't even pass the Ha-Ha test.

Perennial clover is the cornerstone of any QDM program, and WI products are likely the least cost efficient way to achieve it.
By Steve S
#312528
I'm not sure I follow that one, but suggesting that WI products are responsible for a 160% increase in buck weights doesn't even pass the Ha-Ha test.

Perennial clover is the cornerstone of any QDM program, and WI products are likely the least cost efficient way to achieve it.[/quote]
might where you are but when you take over a lease where the average deer weighted 56lbs and now producing some over 200lb bucks because of both IWC and Alfa-rack along with a group of guys that figured out feeding them 12 months a year and allowing the small deer to walk is the only difference you would, BTW when I get 5 to 7 years out of our plots with proper maintenance so the upfront seed cost becomes negligent, from your tone, I'm surprised your not singing the praises of ryegrass!!!
#312533
might where you are but when you take over a lease where the average deer weighted 56lbs and now producing some over 200lb bucks because of both IWC and Alfa-rack along with a group of guys that figured out feeding them 12 months a year and allowing the small deer to walk is the only difference you would, BTW when I get 5 to 7 years out of our plots with proper maintenance so the upfront seed cost becomes negligent, from your tone, I'm surprised your not singing the praises of ryegrass!!!


That is completely ridiculous. That logic is like saying: "I wore my lucky socks and my favorite football team won... Therefore wearing those socks caused the victory.

By the way, if you actually look at the seed tag you will see only a small portion is actual improved clover varieties. When you buy Durana for example, you are getting 100% improved clover. Durana has persistence characters equal to or greater than the WI improved seed. Durana is also expensive because it is exclusive to Pennington but it is not near the cost of WI with equal or better performance. Another improved clover with outstanding characteristics is LA-S1 which can be found at lower costs.

Improving deer weight requires scale. You can start to measure improvement if you convert 1% of a deer's home range into quality food and at 3% that improvement become significant. A good bogie for home range is 1,000 acres although that varies greatly with habitat quality. Since perennial clover should be 40%-60% of a program, you are talking 5 to 15 acres of clover.

I don't know about you, but most folks have limited resources and more habitat projects than they can afford. Any money wasted on unnecessary seed cost to pay for marketing and those pretty bags with big bucks on them is money that is unavailable for other habitat projects.

For someone planting a quarter acre for attraction, the BOB seed companies may make sense especially for some mixes. It isn't practical for the little guy to mix his own. However anyone actually doing QDM quickly finds there are much more cost efficient ways to develop a program.

My purpose here is not to promote one product over another, simply to help folks get legitimate information to make good choices. BOB seed companies do fill an niche, but making claims that deer herd weight increases are a function of WI products is laughable and doesn't serve readers well.
By Steve S
#312536
might where you are but when you take over a lease where the average deer weighted 56lbs and now producing some over 200lb bucks because of both IWC and Alfa-rack along with a group of guys that figured out feeding them 12 months a year and allowing the small deer to walk is the only difference you would, BTW when I get 5 to 7 years out of our plots with proper maintenance so the upfront seed cost becomes negligent, from your tone, I'm surprised your not singing the praises of ryegrass!!!


That is completely ridiculous. That logic is like saying: "I wore my lucky socks and my favorite football team won... Therefore wearing those socks caused the victory.

By the way, if you actually look at the seed tag you will see only a small portion is actual improved clover varieties. When you buy Durana for example, you are getting 100% improved clover. Durana has persistence characters equal to or greater than the WI improved seed. Durana is also expensive because it is exclusive to Pennington but it is not near the cost of WI with equal or better performance. Another improved clover with outstanding characteristics is LA-S1 which can be found at lower costs.

Improving deer weight requires scale. You can start to measure improvement if you convert 1% of a deer's home range into quality food and at 3% that improvement become significant. A good bogie for home range is 1,000 acres although that varies greatly with habitat quality. Since perennial clover should be 40%-60% of a program, you are talking 5 to 15 acres of clover.

I don't know about you, but most folks have limited resources and more habitat projects than they can afford. Any money wasted on unnecessary seed cost to pay for marketing and those pretty bags with big bucks on them is money that is unavailable for other habitat projects.

For someone planting a quarter acre for attraction, the BOB seed companies may make sense especially for some mixes. It isn't practical for the little guy to mix his own. However anyone actually doing QDM quickly finds there are much more cost efficient ways to develop a program.

My purpose here is not to promote one product over another, simply to help folks get legitimate information to make good choices. BOB seed companies do fill an niche, but making claims that deer herd weight increases are a function of WI products is laughable and doesn't serve readers well.

LOL, it ALL starts with a soil test, the rest is up to the critters, anyone who has a decent plot program should know that, not the BOB hype!!, this is a cutnpaste from a "neutral" site, Seedland --- Durana will make an excellent pure stand or combination planting for any food plot to feed, attract and hold game on your property. Durana is persistent, productive and a highly preferred white clover.
Nutrition: 18 to 28% crude protein and total digestible nutrients (TDN) ranging from 65 to 85%------Imperial Whitetail Clover produces up to 30 - 35 % protein 12 months a year and can last for up to 5 years without replanting, So your saying cost and not the protein difference should be the deciding factor?
#312540
might where you are but when you take over a lease where the average deer weighted 56lbs and now producing some over 200lb bucks because of both IWC and Alfa-rack along with a group of guys that figured out feeding them 12 months a year and allowing the small deer to walk is the only difference you would, BTW when I get 5 to 7 years out of our plots with proper maintenance so the upfront seed cost becomes negligent, from your tone, I'm surprised your not singing the praises of ryegrass!!!


That is completely ridiculous. That logic is like saying: "I wore my lucky socks and my favorite football team won... Therefore wearing those socks caused the victory.

By the way, if you actually look at the seed tag you will see only a small portion is actual improved clover varieties. When you buy Durana for example, you are getting 100% improved clover. Durana has persistence characters equal to or greater than the WI improved seed. Durana is also expensive because it is exclusive to Pennington but it is not near the cost of WI with equal or better performance. Another improved clover with outstanding characteristics is LA-S1 which can be found at lower costs.

Improving deer weight requires scale. You can start to measure improvement if you convert 1% of a deer's home range into quality food and at 3% that improvement become significant. A good bogie for home range is 1,000 acres although that varies greatly with habitat quality. Since perennial clover should be 40%-60% of a program, you are talking 5 to 15 acres of clover.

I don't know about you, but most folks have limited resources and more habitat projects than they can afford. Any money wasted on unnecessary seed cost to pay for marketing and those pretty bags with big bucks on them is money that is unavailable for other habitat projects.

For someone planting a quarter acre for attraction, the BOB seed companies may make sense especially for some mixes. It isn't practical for the little guy to mix his own. However anyone actually doing QDM quickly finds there are much more cost efficient ways to develop a program.

My purpose here is not to promote one product over another, simply to help folks get legitimate information to make good choices. BOB seed companies do fill an niche, but making claims that deer herd weight increases are a function of WI products is laughable and doesn't serve readers well.

LOL, it ALL starts with a soil test, the rest is up to the critters, anyone who has a decent plot program should know that, not the BOB hype!!, this is a cutnpaste from a "neutral" site, Seedland --- Durana will make an excellent pure stand or combination planting for any food plot to feed, attract and hold game on your property. Durana is persistent, productive and a highly preferred white clover.
Nutrition: 18 to 28% crude protein and total digestible nutrients (TDN) ranging from 65 to 85%------Imperial Whitetail Clover produces up to 30 - 35 % protein 12 months a year and can last for up to 5 years without replanting, So your saying cost and not the protein difference should be the deciding factor?


Seedland is not a neutral site, they are a seed vendor selling BOB seed. Regardless of that, folks focusing on things like protein levels are missing the forest for the trees. I've seen this same argument being made in the soybean wars. Managers are far better off focusing on ensuring the crop choices are filling the appropriate gaps in native food sources rather than a few points in a specific nutrient level between varieties. Food plots are a small part of a deer's overall diet.

I'm not sure at all where the soil test comment came from. It is a bit bazar. What would make you think I don't do soil testing?

The bottom line is this: Increases in herd health as measured by body weight and antler size are a function of an overall QDM program including both age and nutrition given that genetics have been shown not to be controllable in free ranging herds. Age is primarily impacted by letting young bucks walk which probably has the largest potential impact on average body weight. Nutrition can be managed by a combination of food plots, native habitat management, and management of doe numbers.

One companies product, no matter which company or product, is not the driver in increased body weights.
By Steve S
#312541
By the way, if you actually look at the seed tag you will see only a small portion is actual improved clover varieties. When you buy Durana for example, you are getting 100% improved clover. Durana has persistence characters equal to or greater than the WI improved seed. Durana is also expensive because it is exclusive to Pennington but it is not near the cost of WI with equal or better performance. Another improved clover with outstanding characteristics is LA-S1 which can be found at lower costs.

Improving deer weight requires scale. You can start to measure improvement if you convert 1% of a deer's home range into quality food and at 3% that improvement become significant. A good bogie for home range is 1,000 acres although that varies greatly with habitat quality. Since perennial clover should be 40%-60% of a program, you are talking 5 to 15 acres of clover.

I don't know about you, but most folks have limited resources and more habitat projects than they can afford. Any money wasted on unnecessary seed cost to pay for marketing and those pretty bags with big bucks on them is money that is unavailable for other habitat projects.

For someone planting a quarter acre for attraction, the BOB seed companies may make sense especially for some mixes. It isn't practical for the little guy to mix his own. However anyone actually doing QDM quickly finds there are much more cost efficient ways to develop a program.

My purpose here is not to promote one product over another, simply to help folks get legitimate information to make good choices. BOB seed companies do fill an niche, but making claims that deer herd weight increases are a function of WI products is laughable and doesn't serve readers well.[/quote]
LOL, it ALL starts with a soil test, the rest is up to the critters, anyone who has a decent plot program should know that, not the BOB hype!!, this is a cutnpaste from a "neutral" site, Seedland --- Durana will make an excellent pure stand or combination planting for any food plot to feed, attract and hold game on your property. Durana is persistent, productive and a highly preferred white clover.
Nutrition: 18 to 28% crude protein and total digestible nutrients (TDN) ranging from 65 to 85%------Imperial Whitetail Clover produces up to 30 - 35 % protein 12 months a year and can last for up to 5 years without replanting, So your saying cost and not the protein difference should be the deciding factor?[/quote]

Seedland is not a neutral site, they are a seed vendor selling BOB seed. Regardless of that, folks focusing on things like protein levels are missing the forest for the trees. I've seen this same argument being made in the soybean wars. Managers are far better off focusing on ensuring the crop choices are filling the appropriate gaps in native food sources rather than a few points in a specific nutrient level between varieties. Food plots are a small part of a deer's overall diet.

I'm not sure at all where the soil test comment came from. It is a bit bazar. What would make you think I don't do soil testing?

The bottom line is this: Increases in herd health as measured by body weight and antler size are a function of an overall QDM program including both age and nutrition given that genetics have been shown not to be controllable in free ranging herds. Age is primarily impacted by letting young bucks walk which probably has the largest potential impact on average body weight. Nutrition can be managed by a combination of food plots, native habitat management, and management of doe numbers.

One companies product, no matter which company or product, is not the driver in increased body weights.[/quote]
You very conveniently "failed" to notice I put neutral in paresis for you and the protein difference stated in the two products and your wrong about free ranging deer, I suggest you start by reading The Deer of North America by Leonard Lee Rue III, now you say you don't understand the comment about soil!!?? What does any plant grow in? Where does the plant get the nutrients passed along to whatever feeds on them, humans included? I'd suggest you study a great deal more on this subject before you say something I'm very proud of doing can't be done and what led to my interest in the use of game cameras to study them with.
#312543
You very conveniently "failed" to notice I put neutral in paresis for you and the protein difference stated in the two products and your wrong about free ranging deer, I suggest you start by reading The Deer of North America by Leonard Lee Rue III, now you say you don't understand the comment about soil!!?? What does any plant grow in? Where does the plant get the nutrients passed along to whatever feeds on them, humans included? I'd suggest you study a great deal more on this subject before you say something I'm very proud of doing can't be done and what led to my interest in the use of game cameras to study them with.


Once again you mist the point and misdirect. I didn't say I don't understand the importance of soils, I said I didn't understand why you assumed I didn't understand the importance of soil testing. I'm not wrong about free ranging deer. All the scientific studies that have been conducted show that genetics can not be controlled in free ranging herds. There have been a number of computer models that look at DNA distribution. They show that regardless of how you manipulate the harvest, you can't have an impact on genetics.

I think at this point, folks can read this thread and make their own assessments. My points have been made. There are no magic beans and no companies products that can be credited with improving deer weights by 160%. Areas with good nutrition that were heavily hunted using older management techniques of buck only harvest where bucks rarely lived beyond 1 1/2 years may show marked improvements in buck weights simply by letting young bucks walk and improving the age structure. Trying to credit vast improvements in buck weights to a specific companies product is ridiculous.
User avatar
By bowhtr1
#312551
Wow sorry guys for getting this started. You both have valid points. I have no doubt he increased the deer weight by adding all those food plots. How much??? I agree there is no magic bean out there but some beans are better than others. I have planted both Durana and Whitetail Institute and Whitetail grows much better here. Durana is slow to grow the first year and weeds will choke it out if you don't spray. Durana is suppose to last longer but I could not get a good stand started because of all weeds. QDM is a great tool if you can get enough people on the same page. Hard to do. Genetics are what they are. You are not changing them unless you fence in an area and import some deer from somewhere else. That being said you can help get the most out of what you have.

The only thing I do is
Feed soybeans in my feeders in the summer. 30 to 35% protein
Plant High protein food plots and yes this clover is cheaper in the long run by a mile. I'm not just looking at price of seed. Tractor time, Fuel, Cost to keep up equipment.
And if brand A has 25% protein compaired to brand B with 35% Im going with brand B as long as the deer still eat it.
I put out mineral sites

The way I look at it is, anything I can do to get them to eat what I offer is less time they are eating lower quality food. Does it make a difference?? I think it does even though I may not be able to tell. :)

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