[Anthony]

We have received a flood of questions about a camera which appeared on the ArcheryTalk and other forums.

The fellow had stated that it was an all new camera from another manufacturer and had a separate patent. From the pictures posted it was obvious that it was a relabeled Covert II camera in a BMC box.

When questioned about the manufacture on that thread to find out why the similarities, all those posts were deleted. Does this mean that ArcheryTalk is somehow being pulled into this deception? We do not know but it appears that way. This is the same person that attempted to market the SpyPoint cameras (clone?) under that same name and shortly after that everything disappeared off the same forum.

We do know that they are not being shipped direct from keep Time so the source must be from a knock off wholesale company.

Because of the ArcheryTalk members seeing the threads appear then disappear automatically raised suspicion. Until things smooth out and go back aboveboard we would suggest that potential buyers beware and approach any deals with a serious amount of caution.

The DLC Covert Camera and Kit:



The Monarch camera and Kit:


http://www.monarchcams.com

[Anthony]

The most recent comments this morning on another forum in reference to this situation has the instigator crying foul and wanting to know if offering a cheaper camera is out of line. That is definitely not out of line but when you are part of disappearing posts and threads and when that information is being kept from being displayed then the suspicion takes on another light. This appeared to be the tactic to further the sale of that product. The Covert Cam people having established themselves through some hard work should take this tactic as being very negative. Running off the reputation that has been built by others hard work is very much out of line. The apparent on purpose procedures of eliminating everything negative about the offered product should make potential "dealers" and buyers suspicious. Being straightforward is a much better means of gaining good relations with those who would consider a purchase.

[inspector]

I think this has happened with about every successful cam on the market. They should come with a set of Chinese handcuffs when they quit working so you can have something to play with.

[Anthony]

There appears to be a lot of difficulties comprehending the written language. This vendor's fellow members on the other forum brought a situation to our attention. We took the time to visit and verify that all the negative and source posts were deleted shortly after being entered. Not being able to ask the questions over there, they brought it here to find answers where the posts remain and do not get deleted. Not once did we see him question as to what happened to those posts, so it appears he condones that type of action in order to further his deceptive methods. We at Chasingame do not care what he sells or for how much, as long as it is above board and the consumer is protected. Those attempts at removing information puts him in very bad light and we can understand why they had to go outside to seek answers. Now this is out and cannot be deleted someone wants to kill the messenger by saying we are selling Scoutguards because of the positive review. By him selling a duplicate of the Covert II camera does not in any way hurt Scoutguard. They have worked hard and earned their reputation and never once stooped to underhanded methods to make their sales. We will just keep the information coming and let the consumer make his/her own choice as to who they choose to deal with. We would suggest at this time that choice should be one of the three established vendors who offer cameras from the same manufacture and do not practice deception.

[bobcat]

I was one of those who blasted the guy when he supposedly had the Spypoint clones coming out. My thread got deleted and I got a warning from a mod.

[yoderj@cox.net]

The Covert Cam people having established themselves through some hard work should take this tactic as being very negative. Running off the reputation that has been built by others hard work is very much out of line..

Don't ya really hate that. A company goes to all the trouble of working with a manufacturer to introduce a camera thinking they have an exclusive deal with the manufacturer only for another company to come in, leverage off their work, and slap another name on the same camera.

The guys at DLC must be really pissed ... and have a whole new respect for karma

[yoderj@cox.net]

I just thought I'd do a little test. I'm a registered user over at Archery Talk, but I don't frequent it and only have done a few posts.

So, I when to the Monarch Coming Soon thread and posted a somewhat negative post. Nothing outlandish, I just said that with all the QC problems with the Boly/Keeptime cameras, why would anyone buy the Monarch, HCO, or DLC when they can get a 2-year warranty with the Bushnell TC.

It has been 24 hours now. My post has not been removed and no one has responded. I've received no PMs telling me to sit down and shut up.

Thanks,

Jack

[Anthony]

This past week we were solicited by a Chinese wholesale company wanting to send us sample cameras in hopes to set us up as another dealer. All the cameras were of the SG-550 version and Covert 11 looking cameras. For some reason these outlets seem to be growing in numbers. Their web site also had several of the Chasingame pictures that had been borrowed for use on their site. We suggest that no one get involved with these style offerings or deal with dealers who buy from them. The people that have taken the hits and supported their buyers the last couple years should be where you should look if you choose to purchase that type of camera. To come into the system and expect to sell and operate off already created reputations is a very bad business style. The web site http://www.monarchcams.com has a disclaimer about http://www.monarchtrailcameras.com which is now the site that is attempting to circumvent the system and the instigators of why this thread is still alive. There is also new activity on the other site today and we will be watching to see if the system over there again kills the bad news messengers and the posts again disappear.

[yoderj@cox.net]

To my mind, it reflects even more poorly on KeepTime. (I'm presuming, perhaps wrongly these cameras are coming from them) It tells me how they value their product. If they are willing to sell it to anyone who brings money to the table and don't care about having a dealer network.

My guess is that they are going to shoot themselves in the foot. If they keep selling cameras to Chinese wholesalers who are re branding and selling to US dealers and it starts to hurt Bushnell, I'm guessing Bushnell will look elsewhere. I'm guessing that is by far their biggest contract. It seems like a foolish risk.

Having said that, I wouldn't fault any consumer for trying to buy an equivalent product at the best price they can find. I also laud Chasingame for warning consumers that the cost of a camera is not just the up-front cost, but the full life-cycle costs that count. That includes warranty service. If a company pops up over night, buys a big batch of cameras from a Chinese wholesaler, and sells that batch, they can close down the business in a couple months, relieve themselves of any warranty liability, and re-form under another name. There is a reason they refer to some companies as "fly-by-night".

A larger concern from my perspective is a forum operator potentially colluding with a forum sponsor and vendor to remove negative information about the product or company.

Thanks,

jack

[Anthony]

There has been a lull in the debacle surrounding this creation, until recently. When there is a set of circumstances that appear on one of our forum threads that seems to good to be true, then it is probably is and we gave this situation the term of being a "set-up". There is an obvious "set-up" now being conducted on that forum over a repair situation. To figure this out a person would have to go way back in that forums thread history and also the history of what happened on other forums. You see the names of individuals that seemed to co sponsor the instigators new deal day one in order to advance sales. Then when there was questions about a service situation, these old cronies stepped in with a story line of perfect consequences. If you had not been following and copying every bit of data on this type of situation then it would appear to be very innocent and strait forward. Multiple times we have had on this forum as many as three people gang up and try this method, either to bad talk a product or to praise a particular product. I am kept very busy trying to screen out the sludge in order to let the truth shine through. The program that is being allowed to happen on the other forum leaked over here for a while but now seems to be quite at home in the safety of the forum from which it tried to migrate from. We still want the buyers to be ware of anything named Monarch and to be part of the hype now being generated by those real established dealers flaunting their wares at the ATA show. We are watching them very close also.

[Bluesman]

Anthony. You have done an outstanding job of keeping things on the up and up.Your word on anything is Gold to me. David

[Chug]

would this fall under the FTC. Rule of some kind?.

Thanx for the heads up... We the buyers, do not have that background to know what is what.

Keep up the good work. This site is famous!.

[mookyj]

I have been following this for some time, and coupled with the latest email sent regarding change ups with vendors I have a few observations. Before I start, there is no intent on slamming anyone or meaning to insult. If I had to guess there is likely a lot of $$ lost on someone's part. Tough goings on to have in these times.

Wether one is an importer, reseller, or manufacturer in part. The buyer goes by reputation, what has been advertised, and the usual impressions implied or not. One of the basic ideas of ISO9001 is to ensure quality thru-out the process independant of type of process. At a minimum a sample inspection and functional test of each lot /shipment would have pointed out the change in performance parameters early on. Like I mentioned, easy to say than do, and likely somebody just got shafted moneywise. It does take time top do this type of qualifications of each lot that comes in the door. China insists on those importing into their country be ISO9001 qualified, but not among themselves. At the least it is an unfair practice. They try to keep it all to themselves to create jobs for their ever increasing population.

As to copyright/patent infringement, buyer/reseller beware. Copies & knockoffs are not a news item, especially from China. It hurts any inventor/company or those who play by the rules. China will go thru business cycles as we have, and will have to honor patents in order to keep our business down the road. That will be some time before that (years) happens. The old adage applies. It is seems to be way too much of a bargain, it is likely not a bargain at all. Applies many times to somewhat of a bargain.

As a component supplier in this industry (imaging products) my company deals with this all the time.



Mike